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	<title>Comments on: Reconciling the 401k Fee Estimates of the ICI and its Critics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/</link>
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		<title>By: Mike Alfred</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2740</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Alfred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:50:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2740</guid>
		<description>It looks like the ICI&#039;s response has moved to a new link (the old link posted by Mike McNamee above is now broken):
http://www.ici.org/pressroom/speeches/09_brightscope_stmt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like the ICI&#8217;s response has moved to a new link (the old link posted by Mike McNamee above is now broken):<br />
<a href="http://www.ici.org/pressroom/speeches/09_brightscope_stmt" rel="nofollow">http://www.ici.org/pressroom/speeches/09_brightscope_stmt</a></p>
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		<title>By: Al Otto</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2306</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Otto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 12:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2306</guid>
		<description>This is an excellent review of the ICI/Deloitte study.  These typical studies have misguided the reader for years and it is time to get real.  I would also submit that &quot;all-in&quot; cost studies for 401(k) plans leave huge opportunities to overlook/gloss over hidden fees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent review of the ICI/Deloitte study.  These typical studies have misguided the reader for years and it is time to get real.  I would also submit that &#8220;all-in&#8221; cost studies for 401(k) plans leave huge opportunities to overlook/gloss over hidden fees.</p>
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		<title>By: BrightScope&#8217;s Response to the ICI &#124; BrightScope Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2283</link>
		<dc:creator>BrightScope&#8217;s Response to the ICI &#124; BrightScope Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 22:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2283</guid>
		<description>[...] BrightScope&#8217;s concerns about their recent fee study. We shared those concerns  in our recent blog post. We encourage our readers to read the ICI response in its entirety before proceeding with this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] BrightScope&#8217;s concerns about their recent fee study. We shared those concerns  in our recent blog post. We encourage our readers to read the ICI response in its entirety before proceeding with this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2064</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 22:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2064</guid>
		<description>I wish the ICI would stop putting themselves in the position to have to defend themselves in such an embarrassing fashion.  It makes our job increasingly more difficult.  As a plan sponsor, I appreciate mutual funds, and know the incredible value they bring to investors.  The ICI shouldn&#039;t even need to have studies performed.  The underlying economics of funds and retirement plans should already be known.  Is the ICI leading the charge for full transparency?  Do they support Congress&#039; effort to bring full transparency to the marketplace?  If not, their message above is incredibly disingenuous.  Stop with the silly surveys and give us the real deal -- full disclosure.  Sorry ICI.  I&#039;m in BrightScope&#039;s camp on this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish the ICI would stop putting themselves in the position to have to defend themselves in such an embarrassing fashion.  It makes our job increasingly more difficult.  As a plan sponsor, I appreciate mutual funds, and know the incredible value they bring to investors.  The ICI shouldn&#8217;t even need to have studies performed.  The underlying economics of funds and retirement plans should already be known.  Is the ICI leading the charge for full transparency?  Do they support Congress&#8217; effort to bring full transparency to the marketplace?  If not, their message above is incredibly disingenuous.  Stop with the silly surveys and give us the real deal &#8212; full disclosure.  Sorry ICI.  I&#8217;m in BrightScope&#8217;s camp on this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike McNamee, ICI</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2059</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike McNamee, ICI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 19:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2059</guid>
		<description>As the sponsor of the Defined Contribution/401(k) Fee Study, ICI would like to offer its official response to this post.

The fundamental flaw of the BrightScope article is the writer’s attempt to reconcile our study with a commentary by Matthew Hutcheson (Elder Law Journal, “Uncovering and Understanding Hidden Fees in Qualified Retirement Plans”). It’s impossible to compare the two, because Hutcheson’s commentary does not describe or provide his methodology, sample size, or detail on anything other than a “conventional” plan of his own recollection. The Deloitte/ICI study uses an original survey that gathered more than 1,000 data points from each of the 130 plans included and includes comprehensive fee and other data on plans of all sizes.

We have posted a detailed response to this blog item on our web site (http://www.ici.org/statements/remarks/09_brightscope_stmt.html). Three of the items where we would take exception are:

o	Sample. The Deloitte/ICI report provides an extensive background of how Deloitte conducted the survey. It is a study to understand the fee structures of 401(k) plans and how they work, using a sample of plans ranging from very small plans to very large. Exhibits throughout the report clearly indicate the size segments associated with each data item. 

o	Data. We did not calculate a participant-weighted “all-in” fee in our study. The data in our report, however, allows a user to calculate such a participant-weighted fee. That calculation produces an “all-in” fee of 0.86 percent of assets—not very far from the median fee of 0.72 percent for the 130 plans in the study.

o	Trading costs. Trading costs is a complicated issue. The blunt approach used in the blog posting—simply multiplying the investment cost of a fund—is misleading because it does not apply well to 401(k) plans and exaggerates the burden that trading costs put on investor returns.

We would invite your readers to review our Research Department’s full analysis of the BrightScope blog post on our web site at http://www.ici.org/statements/remarks/09_brightscope_stmt.html.

--- Mike McNamee
Senior Director, Public Communications</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the sponsor of the Defined Contribution/401(k) Fee Study, ICI would like to offer its official response to this post.</p>
<p>The fundamental flaw of the BrightScope article is the writer’s attempt to reconcile our study with a commentary by Matthew Hutcheson (Elder Law Journal, “Uncovering and Understanding Hidden Fees in Qualified Retirement Plans”). It’s impossible to compare the two, because Hutcheson’s commentary does not describe or provide his methodology, sample size, or detail on anything other than a “conventional” plan of his own recollection. The Deloitte/ICI study uses an original survey that gathered more than 1,000 data points from each of the 130 plans included and includes comprehensive fee and other data on plans of all sizes.</p>
<p>We have posted a detailed response to this blog item on our web site (<a href="http://www.ici.org/statements/remarks/09_brightscope_stmt.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ici.org/statements/remarks/09_brightscope_stmt.html</a>). Three of the items where we would take exception are:</p>
<p>o	Sample. The Deloitte/ICI report provides an extensive background of how Deloitte conducted the survey. It is a study to understand the fee structures of 401(k) plans and how they work, using a sample of plans ranging from very small plans to very large. Exhibits throughout the report clearly indicate the size segments associated with each data item. </p>
<p>o	Data. We did not calculate a participant-weighted “all-in” fee in our study. The data in our report, however, allows a user to calculate such a participant-weighted fee. That calculation produces an “all-in” fee of 0.86 percent of assets—not very far from the median fee of 0.72 percent for the 130 plans in the study.</p>
<p>o	Trading costs. Trading costs is a complicated issue. The blunt approach used in the blog posting—simply multiplying the investment cost of a fund—is misleading because it does not apply well to 401(k) plans and exaggerates the burden that trading costs put on investor returns.</p>
<p>We would invite your readers to review our Research Department’s full analysis of the BrightScope blog post on our web site at <a href="http://www.ici.org/statements/remarks/09_brightscope_stmt.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ici.org/statements/remarks/09_brightscope_stmt.html</a>.</p>
<p>&#8212; Mike McNamee<br />
Senior Director, Public Communications</p>
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		<title>By: "Sunny Yorkman"</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2050</link>
		<dc:creator>"Sunny Yorkman"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 14:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2050</guid>
		<description>Ryan-

My posts are not official ICI responses (hence the &quot;in my humble opinion&quot; acronym).  I am not familiar with the official ICI policy for rank and file employees to express thier opinions in a public forum (hence the pseudonym).

My post was for two reasons.  First, I personally felt that some clarification needed to be given in a public forum to help continue with the productive conversation on this topic.  Second, a personal expression of my frustration with the conflict of perception between what I have viewed from the inside in the last few years, and how ICI is sometimes represented by others.  Yes ICI (and myself) do have an invested interest in this topic which is why they support the research.  However, I have been highly impressed with the level of professionalism and integrity that each person at ICI exhibits everyday.  The entire company tries very hard to make sure they get it right.

Thank you for your work and attention to this incredibly important issue.  Also, thank you for a location for me to express my perceptions and opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan-</p>
<p>My posts are not official ICI responses (hence the &#8220;in my humble opinion&#8221; acronym).  I am not familiar with the official ICI policy for rank and file employees to express thier opinions in a public forum (hence the pseudonym).</p>
<p>My post was for two reasons.  First, I personally felt that some clarification needed to be given in a public forum to help continue with the productive conversation on this topic.  Second, a personal expression of my frustration with the conflict of perception between what I have viewed from the inside in the last few years, and how ICI is sometimes represented by others.  Yes ICI (and myself) do have an invested interest in this topic which is why they support the research.  However, I have been highly impressed with the level of professionalism and integrity that each person at ICI exhibits everyday.  The entire company tries very hard to make sure they get it right.</p>
<p>Thank you for your work and attention to this incredibly important issue.  Also, thank you for a location for me to express my perceptions and opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Alfred</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2028</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Alfred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 19:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2028</guid>
		<description>Sunny-

Thanks for visiting the BrightScope Blog. I appreciate your opinion on this matter and agree with you that making the distinction between plan-weighting and participant/asset weighting is a very important distinction and one that should be explicitly mentioned in any future analysis of this topic. Ultimately each 401k plan has its own unique fee structure and I think we all can agree that plan sponsors and participants should know exactly how much they are paying.

By the way I couldn&#039;t help but notice that you posted your comment from the ICI Washington DC office. Are you an ICI employee? Am I to assume that this is a official ICI response to my post? Thanks for the clarification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny-</p>
<p>Thanks for visiting the BrightScope Blog. I appreciate your opinion on this matter and agree with you that making the distinction between plan-weighting and participant/asset weighting is a very important distinction and one that should be explicitly mentioned in any future analysis of this topic. Ultimately each 401k plan has its own unique fee structure and I think we all can agree that plan sponsors and participants should know exactly how much they are paying.</p>
<p>By the way I couldn&#8217;t help but notice that you posted your comment from the ICI Washington DC office. Are you an ICI employee? Am I to assume that this is a official ICI response to my post? Thanks for the clarification.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunny Yorkman</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-2019</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunny Yorkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 14:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-2019</guid>
		<description>As a person who cares a great deal about this topic, I have spent a good while going over this report to find out what the true answer is.  I have come to the following conclusions:
1)  The report is not well written to get to the bottom of things.
2)  On a plan weighted basis the .72% is very misleading to the 401(k) industry as a whole.  However, plan weighting is not what you should be looking at if you are cocerned about people.
3)  On a asset weighted basis or participant weigthed basis the .72% is much closer than the 3% that is &quot;common knowledge&quot; (more on that later).
3)  The analysis is fairly detailed for the plans that they sampled, but you have to get past page 10 before you get a good idea of that.
4)  Combining footnote 1 of the report (not a great place to put this information) and Exhibit 32 you can make the following statements assuming that there is no sample bias in the survey...
  - the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 66% of all 401(k) assets and 46% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 1.1% and .2% respectively.  These are assets and participants in huge plans (&gt;$100M).
  - the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 16% of all 401(k) assets and 23% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 1.3% and .6% respectively.  These are assets and participants in large plans ($10M-$100M).
  - the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 14% of all 401(k) assets and 20% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 1.6% and .9% respectively.  These are assets and participants in small plans ($1M-$10M).
  - the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 4% of all 401(k) assets and 10% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 2.3% and 1.4% respectively.  These are assets and participants in tiny plans (&lt;$1M).

Basically, my bottom line conclusion is that the report is not written for the casual reader but appears to be well done by Deloitte and ICI.  Most people pay a fairly decent price for all of the work that goes into these plans (thank you government).  3% appears to be on the very high end of things and the government should consider a way to help small and tiny plans.

On a personal note, I think 4 pieces of information should be given to all participants:
1)  The &quot;All-in-fee&quot; of thier personal account.
2)  How much of that &quot;All-in-fee&quot; is paid by the employer directly.
3)  How much of that &quot;All-in-fee&quot; is paid by the participant.
4)  Any contingent fees for the plan (loan fees, market timing fees, etc.)

Of course all of this is only IMHO Nevin and Ryan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a person who cares a great deal about this topic, I have spent a good while going over this report to find out what the true answer is.  I have come to the following conclusions:<br />
1)  The report is not well written to get to the bottom of things.<br />
2)  On a plan weighted basis the .72% is very misleading to the 401(k) industry as a whole.  However, plan weighting is not what you should be looking at if you are cocerned about people.<br />
3)  On a asset weighted basis or participant weigthed basis the .72% is much closer than the 3% that is &#8220;common knowledge&#8221; (more on that later).<br />
3)  The analysis is fairly detailed for the plans that they sampled, but you have to get past page 10 before you get a good idea of that.<br />
4)  Combining footnote 1 of the report (not a great place to put this information) and Exhibit 32 you can make the following statements assuming that there is no sample bias in the survey&#8230;<br />
  &#8211; the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 66% of all 401(k) assets and 46% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 1.1% and .2% respectively.  These are assets and participants in huge plans (&gt;$100M).<br />
  &#8211; the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 16% of all 401(k) assets and 23% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 1.3% and .6% respectively.  These are assets and participants in large plans ($10M-$100M).<br />
  &#8211; the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 14% of all 401(k) assets and 20% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 1.6% and .9% respectively.  These are assets and participants in small plans ($1M-$10M).<br />
  &#8211; the 10th and 90th percentile of all-in-fees for aproximately 4% of all 401(k) assets and 10% of all 401(k) participants should be somewhere close to 2.3% and 1.4% respectively.  These are assets and participants in tiny plans (&lt;$1M).</p>
<p>Basically, my bottom line conclusion is that the report is not written for the casual reader but appears to be well done by Deloitte and ICI.  Most people pay a fairly decent price for all of the work that goes into these plans (thank you government).  3% appears to be on the very high end of things and the government should consider a way to help small and tiny plans.</p>
<p>On a personal note, I think 4 pieces of information should be given to all participants:<br />
1)  The &#8220;All-in-fee&#8221; of thier personal account.<br />
2)  How much of that &#8220;All-in-fee&#8221; is paid by the employer directly.<br />
3)  How much of that &#8220;All-in-fee&#8221; is paid by the participant.<br />
4)  Any contingent fees for the plan (loan fees, market timing fees, etc.)</p>
<p>Of course all of this is only IMHO Nevin and Ryan.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Pritchard</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-1918</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Pritchard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 12:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-1918</guid>
		<description>Keep up the great work, gentlemen.  I hope you are able to get this type of information to Representative Miller and Representative Andrews as they work to pass the fee-disclosure bills currently under consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep up the great work, gentlemen.  I hope you are able to get this type of information to Representative Miller and Representative Andrews as they work to pass the fee-disclosure bills currently under consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: Brooks Hamilton</title>
		<link>http://www.brightscope.com/blog/2009/05/13/reconciling-the-401k-fee-estimates-of-the-ici-and-its-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-1894</link>
		<dc:creator>Brooks Hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brightscope.com/blog/?p=612#comment-1894</guid>
		<description>Many passionate proponents have long demanded that 401k Plans deliver a &quot;fair shake&quot; to our countrymen, so that workers could have the opportunity to retire in dignity rather than despair. Finally (after several decades!) believing that they are unfortunately in a street fight against a consortium of ruthless racketeers who are knowingly and willfully pillaging and plundering the American People, attempting perhaps the greatest heist in the history of capitalism, these proponents are understandably affected by both an adrenalin rush as well as a testosterone surge! Challenging a school yard bully is a memory recalled but not cherished.

It is rare to read such a scholarly and compelling argument (on either side) so cooly delivered.  Hats off to Ryan and Mike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many passionate proponents have long demanded that 401k Plans deliver a &#8220;fair shake&#8221; to our countrymen, so that workers could have the opportunity to retire in dignity rather than despair. Finally (after several decades!) believing that they are unfortunately in a street fight against a consortium of ruthless racketeers who are knowingly and willfully pillaging and plundering the American People, attempting perhaps the greatest heist in the history of capitalism, these proponents are understandably affected by both an adrenalin rush as well as a testosterone surge! Challenging a school yard bully is a memory recalled but not cherished.</p>
<p>It is rare to read such a scholarly and compelling argument (on either side) so cooly delivered.  Hats off to Ryan and Mike.</p>
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